Today’s Difficult Question
Do Things happen outside the will of God ?
posted by SocraticFool | 3:34 PM
Socratic Corner
Wisdom is sometimes known for what it does not say and sometimes it is known only when it admits that it does not know what it once thought it did.
About Me
- Name: Bryan
- Location: Dallas, Texas, United States
I am an undergraduate student in humanities currently at Criswell College. I Enjoy a good discussion.
10 Comments:
Welcome back! 2 Peter 3:9 says "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (KJV) There are numerous verses that indicate there will be many that perish.
so something that God does goes aginist what God Wants ? {Socratic Method )
so something that God does goes against what God Wants after all isn’t he the one who causes them to perish ? {Socratic method)
Also who is the You in the paassage of 2 Peter ?
2 PEter 1:1 - 9
1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring R123 up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the R125 holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.
The Coming Day of the Lord
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Bryan I will try, but it’s difficult for me to say the least, to approach this using the Socratic method since I place final authority in the scripture. I detest the Socratic method seeing it is manipulation and given that I find my reasoning almost exclusively Platonic I am either the best or the worst with which to practice depending on your need. I will gladly withdraw if someone (that would be almost anyone) more capable or someone more willing to reason outside the scripture should enter the dialog. I would caution everyone, that approaching this topic in the absence of scriptural authority necessitates heresy and therefore the arguments here should be considered exercise only and in no way doctrinal.
To answer your first question I would say that God does nothing against His own will.
To answer the second I would say that it is the Will of God that all who would defy His will should perish.
To answer the third I would say that the “you” that Peter addresses is the Church. I find it more pertinent to the dialog to identify those who God defines as “any”.
1. The Socratic method is only manipulation in the hands of those who are dishonest if you feel I am dishonest well you shouldn’t dialogue with dishonest people it doesn’t get you anywhere and it only causes you to get frustrated and the dishonest person to grow in pride. Unfortunately in blogger world you have to trust the person your are dialoguing with is honest I have made the assumption with you will you with me? I trust if you are wrong you are mistaken I only ask the same assumption from you in regards to me.
2. While it is true that approaching reality apart from scripture is logical suicide for the Christian, it is also logical suicide to reason with the text of scripture I am not accusing you of doing this but I am just stating that it must be understood that there is more than just quoting a verse here or there that’s not building a logical coherent case from scripture with the authors intent. Of course this assumes that God does not contradict himself (i.e. Lie).
3. Be made conclusively though a specific group is mentioned there seems to be little textual ground to be made for ever single person
The argument goes like this I am attempting to make goes like this textually
2 Peter 8-9
(In the Context of unbelieving mockers and persecution)
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved (The church), that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.9 The Lord is not slow about His promise (His coming to rule visibly), as some count slowness, but is patient toward you (the church), not wishing for any (of you in the previous group) to perish but for all to come to repentance. (Note afterwards the day of the Lord when Christ comes back)
The interpretation you have suggested in my humble opinion is that All must refer to all which is seems in my opinion to go against the grain of the context.
I admit it is not manipulation per se. I should have said it is “like” manipulation in that the lesson to be learned (or the belief to be questioned) is not always clearly stated to the student prior to the dialog. This method restricts the student in forming a coherent argument, or worse, from coming to any understanding other than what is proposed. In this case the lesson to be learned is that the free will of man cannot alter the outcome of what is the will of God but the argument is framed in a way that negates the possibility that a man has free will, which will of course be the argument of the student here. I do however agree with points 1 and 2 and I can understand and appreciate your reasoning and interpretation in point 3. I do not expect that anyone should base their entire understanding of will on these verses alone, however we agree the interpretation here does have implication on other scripture and vise versa.
My interpretation is centered on the message that Peter is giving the Church everlasting that Jesus will indeed return. The promise is to those who have believed, did believe and will believe and of course I will argue that the “any” are those who choose to believe where I suspect you understand they are those chosen to believe. Given your understanding this passage is not evidence that God, by His sovereign will, bestowed upon men the ability to defy His will thereby performing acts that are outside of His will. Given my understanding it is proof positive. (Sorry Bryan I really am no good at this method)
When you say any are those that choose to believe you too are limiting to those who believe. We are arguing the same thing if you limit “any” to the group of elect even if we disagree if it’s irresistible grace or not. If on the other hand you mean “any” to mean those that don’t believe then you run into the problem of my critique. Yes I am a Calvinist but I am just trying to understand this verse in it’s context and your previous response using the verse with the implication that those who perish are those who don’t believe i.e. have saving faith and this is part of God’s will.
you are fine at this method for you are honest.
(you are too kind in your evaluation but I appreciate the encouragement)
When I say that “any” are those who choose, the implication is that those who don’t violate His will. The use of this verse to answer the difficult question hinges on the perception of God waiting for those, who will, to repent in which case those who won’t violate His will that they do so. The message here is that God is giving time for others to repent before the promise is fulfilled because He is not willing that they perish due to a time limitation on His part. From what I understand is your perspective the perception is one of God waiting until He has caused all that He wills to repent and there is no opportunity to repent, only a time that God has foreordained that they will and that time has not yet elapsed. The definition of “any” in this verse is then dependant upon which perspective is true, those who will, or those He wills. To evaluate this we must first determine if repentance requires acceptance or is thrust upon the one God chooses. Would you agree thus far?
Only if he wills them to;)
the answer is simple, just look around us and revise back to the bible, or any other sacret books of any religion, than you most definately can find an answer to it,
:)
That's a great story. Waiting for more. here
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